Accidental mis-address. Although... I shudder to correct it, now; but I can at least fix my attribution of Chris H to Chris G, below. (Good catch, C.H.) > -------- Original Message -------- > Cheryl O (& Chris G, I suppose) - I did not intend to paint the black > and white picture you presented. I am no more anti-family than I am > pro-alcoholism or pro-lung-cancer, nor is anyone that society calls > "sane." I do not classify any group of individuals universally, if I can > avoid it--what ever made you think I believe all kids are brats, in > particular considering this quote: > "I adore the nice ones, and I give the evil eye to parents of the snotty > ones and strive to ignore them." > That very quote of mine undermines your entire (hyperbolic) counter. I > never said that even the bad ones "stop adult fun"--we ignore them as > much as possible and then have the owner throw them out--but if you'd > like to speak to what I *said* then perhaps you could explain what's > wrong about having a place where gamers can be gamers, in all our > smoking, drinking, argumentative greatness? Why would such a place be in > any way a "problem" for you such that you have to speak against it? Go > open a normal FLGS, then; I won't stop you (or even criticize you! Try > it some time!). > > My idea was for a conjunction of businesses which would try to provide > as many gamers as possible with whatever welcoming and comfortable space > they desire; and cater to their needs over the hours, so they don't > spend money elsewhere; and be able to afford to remain open into the wee > hours. > * I get off work after 6pm and stay up until midnight or 1am every day; > my FLGS close by 9pm. That's my 3 hour window, five days a week, > excluding dinner--I eat late anyway, so that's not a big issue... for > me. But even 3 hours is not enough, so I don't even try to go anymore. > But when I did.... > > * My FLGS won't allow smoking or drinking, so every smoke break slows > play (sometimes for the whole group); and meanwhile, my relaxing after > work beverage(s) await me 3 hours in the future, when I leave the store. > I could stop smoking, and I someday will; but why should I *have* to go > *only* to venues which are non-smoking: traditional FLGSs? *I* make a > point of buying something *every single time* I am in the FLGS, so > *maybe* a bit of accommodation for a patron is in order, hmmm? A bar can > provide such accommodation legally; a retail establishment can not. In > my area. (On that note, folks, let's drop the "but my state's laws are > different" threads, OK? YMMV covers a LOT of ground, in such spiraling > debates. So... YMMV. Done, OK?) > > * Many of the nights I consider playing at my FLGS, it is crowded by > kids; often, their behavior and attitudes (judgementalism, cruelty to > playmates, rudeness) go FAR beyond the "harm" caused by hearing some > some pick-up lines or some curse words that they hear (and I bet SAY) > every single day. Now, FWIW, I'm very happy for you and glad that yours > don't, and I'm glad that you supervise them; the former is actually > pretty common when joined with the latter... the latter, though IS NOT. > FLGSs are very often "free day care." But don't take my word for it: > E-mail some Retailer Rabbits and take a poll. > > * "Kids banned"? If I may be so "rude": WTF are you talking about? It > ain't ME keeping underage kids out of a bar without their parents; it's > the law. I never even used the word "ban" that I can recall, even when > talking about aggressive, rude people who get kicked out to make the > place gamer-friendly. > > And there's my whole (ugly, child-eating) point: GAMER-friendly. And not > all gamers are you; and rather few of them are parents (Looney Labs > games are somewhat unique in this regard, FYI). And not all potential > future customers are like you nor are parents nor will wander into a > FLGS out of curiosity. But I have personal evidence (and have read more > here) of it being VERY easy to entertain folks at the pub and, thereby, > slowly add to the overall gaming populace of the area. Which, if I > recall correctly, was the point of the whole thread: growning a gaming > scene so that an FLGS gets enough revenue to stay open. > > And speaking of straw men: when's the last time you went into ANY bar, > never mind one which provide free miniatures terrain to use and demo > games and customized and configurable tables and...? If you're a > non-customer berating me for an idea of a place you'd never go anywhere > near... uh, thanks for the data point, I guess. The FLGS or coffee shop > is waiting for you (BTW, according to a Johns Hopkins study, caffeine > causes cancer... just so's you know). > > --- > > Carlton - Thanks for additional grounding in the gray world of real > life. Your point about sport events (or the average school yard or park) > and sex/profanity hit even harder than mine about the commonality of > children being viciously cruel to each other. > > --- > > Lisa H - Absolutely right: local laws must generally be followed to stay > in business. Those of you who own FLGS must conform to local, state, and > federal regulations in everything you do (and say). > That said... so what? I've never heard of a bar closing down because of > crippling license fees or bathroom maintenance costs. > ;) > However... Indy is a weird and wild exception. Remind me: can you order > drinks in a restaurant? I know you can't get cold beer in a convenience > store, nor cold soda at a liquor store; but the two tend to setup within > a block of each other. Freaks. > :P > :) > > --- > > Everyone else: It was an idea to toss out there for thought; it wasn't A > Modest Proposal, for God's sake. If you take your kids to Applebee's, > you'd probably take them to this venue I have in mind. I'm not talking > about a Biker Bar sharing space with a Kindergarten. About all my > concept has different from ANY restaurant establishment that has an > adjoined bar with it own hours is that it *also* has an adjoined retail > establishment with its own hours. > > Just. Like. A. Golf. Club. House. > > Anyone afraid to take their kids to a golf clubhouse? (Rhetorical > question! Rhetorical question! PLEASE, no horrific hyperboles about > Scotch-drunk 80-year-olds molesting your kids!) > > *zips hood on flame suit back up; inserts respirator; genuflects, > saying, "Please, massah, don't whip me; don't beat this tired old body, > no!"* > David