Looney Labs Icehouse Mailing list Archive

Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo

  • From"Guy Srinivasan" <srinivgp@xxxxxxxxx>
  • DateSat, 12 Jan 2008 16:01:42 -0800
The problem I see with many 2 player variants is that the master has
something to gain if the player doesn't guess the rule soon. This encourages
the use of very difficult rules.

Exactly, this is why the master's expected gain should be no greater by picking a rule she thinks will be guessed in 50-60 turns than in 10-12 turns.

The Student gets points for guessing in less than or equal to X turns,
and is given one anyway if the master made the rule too hard:
(1 point if not solved at X, 2 if solved at X, 3 at X-1, etc.)

The Master gets two points if it's solved in exactly X turns.

> If the rule is still not known after X turns, the rule is too hard, it
> is divulged, and the next round begins.

The result:

Make a rule too easy and you end up giving away points.
Make a rule too hard and still give away points.
Do it just right and you don't lose ground on your "opponent" (you each
get 2 points).

My guess is that the Student can't know the predicted number of turns. Here, for example, the Student should try to guess up to turn X-1, then do something random on turn X, then gain a point on turn X+1.

On Jan 12, 2008 9:00 AM, <icehouse-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

  1. 2 player Zendo (Guy Srinivasan)
  2. Re: 2 player Zendo (Jorge Arroyo)
  3. Re: 2 player Zendo (Dale Newfield)
  4. Re: 2 player Zendo (Dale Newfield)


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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:25:22 -0800
From: "Guy Srinivasan" < srinivgp@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
To: icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
       < e464360b0801111425s1012eab0v75f20b97c47ea097@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I know there are several 2 player Zendo variants up at various places, but
nothing I found meets my requirements. Here are my requirements and a first
draft to meet them:

a) There is a Master and a Student for each rule. Almost certainly the two
people playing will switch roles for each rule and some kind of currency,
probably points, will stay with players over multiple rules.
b) The rules should encourage the Student to correctly guess the rule as
soon as possible.
c) The rules should strongly discourage situations in which the Student
takes many, many examples/guesses to figure out the rule and gets
frustrated.
d) The rules should encourage the Master to know beforehand how easy or hard
her rule actually is.

My first draft:

Players alternate being Master and Student, and keep a running total of
points throughout play. The current Master writes a standard Zendo rule and
an integer, 10+, both hidden. This number is her guess at how many turns the
Student will need to guess the rule, and actually represents a range. If the
chosen number is X, the range is X through X+X/5. So 10-12, 11-13, 12-14,
13-15, 14-16, 15-18, 16-19, ... 20-24, etc. Play as in normal Zendo except
that the Student has as many guessing stones as desired. The Student either
builds a sculpture and asks that it be marked, or guesses a rule that the
Master must find a counter-example to. Either counts as a turn. If the
Student takes a number of turns less than specified by the Master's range,
she gains +3 points. If the Student takes a number of turns within the
Master's range, the Master gains +10 points. If the Student goes over the
range, the Master gains +1 point.

This was fun, but it's a little sad that Mondo is missing, and the point
values and range values can undoubtedly be tweaked. Thoughts?

Guy
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:39:04 +0100
From: "Jorge Arroyo" < trozo@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
To: "Icehouse Discussion List" <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
Message-ID:
       <76e9131d0801111739k6ba5d61bvcfd603260ade045b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The problem I see with many 2 player variants is that the master has
something to gain if the player doesn't guess the rule soon. This encourages
the use of very difficult rules. The only solution I see is to create cards
with rules and classify them in difficulty levels. Before the round starts
the players then agree on a level and choose (or randomly take) a card from
that level...

Otherwise, I like the variant. Playing for points might be fun too...

-Jorge

On Jan 11, 2008 11:25 PM, Guy Srinivasan <srinivgp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I know there are several 2 player Zendo variants up at various places, but
> nothing I found meets my requirements. Here are my requirements and a first
> draft to meet them:
>
> a) There is a Master and a Student for each rule. Almost certainly the two
> people playing will switch roles for each rule and some kind of currency,
> probably points, will stay with players over multiple rules.
> b) The rules should encourage the Student to correctly guess the rule as
> soon as possible.
> c) The rules should strongly discourage situations in which the Student
> takes many, many examples/guesses to figure out the rule and gets
> frustrated.
> d) The rules should encourage the Master to know beforehand how easy or
> hard her rule actually is.
>
> My first draft:
>
> Players alternate being Master and Student, and keep a running total of
> points throughout play. The current Master writes a standard Zendo rule and
> an integer, 10+, both hidden. This number is her guess at how many turns the
> Student will need to guess the rule, and actually represents a range. If the
> chosen number is X, the range is X through X+X/5. So 10-12, 11-13, 12-14,
> 13-15, 14-16, 15-18, 16-19, ... 20-24, etc. Play as in normal Zendo except
> that the Student has as many guessing stones as desired. The Student either
> builds a sculpture and asks that it be marked, or guesses a rule that the
> Master must find a counter-example to. Either counts as a turn. If the
> Student takes a number of turns less than specified by the Master's range,
> she gains +3 points. If the Student takes a number of turns within the
> Master's range, the Master gains +10 points. If the Student goes over the
> range, the Master gains +1 point.
>
> This was fun, but it's a little sad that Mondo is missing, and the point
> values and range values can undoubtedly be tweaked. Thoughts?
>
> Guy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Icehouse mailing list
> Icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> http://lists.looneylabs.com/mailman/listinfo/icehouse
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:00:39 -0500
From: Dale Newfield < Dale@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <478873A7.8050905@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Jorge Arroyo wrote:
> The problem I see with many 2 player variants is that the master has
> something to gain if the player doesn't guess the rule soon. This
> encourages the use of very difficult rules.

How about this:

Student picks a number, X.

The master picks a rule that they think will take the student X turns to
figure out.

The Student gets points for guessing in less than or equal to X turns.
(1 point at X, 2 at X-1, etc.)

The Master gets a point if it's solved in exactly X turns.

If the rule is still not known after X turns, the rule is too hard, it
is divulged, and the next round begins.

The result:  make a rule too easy and you end up giving away points.
make a rule too hard and get nowhere.  Do it just right and get a bonus!

(You can't make the bonus more than 1, because then the scoring would
motivate the student not to guess correctly at exactly X, as the master
gains more points than the student when that happens.)

-Dale


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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:13:27 -0500
From: Dale Newfield <Dale@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] 2 player Zendo
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
Message-ID: <478876A7.8050504@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dale Newfield wrote:
> How about this:

I think the variation below prevents starvation, as every round results
in at least one point being awarded.

> Student picks a number, X.
>
> The master picks a rule that they think will take the student X turns to
> figure out.

The Student gets points for guessing in less than or equal to X turns,
and is given one anyway if the master made the rule too hard:
(1 point if not solved at X, 2 if solved at X, 3 at X-1, etc.)

The Master gets two points if it's solved in exactly X turns.

> If the rule is still not known after X turns, the rule is too hard, it
> is divulged, and the next round begins.

The result:

Make a rule too easy and you end up giving away points.
Make a rule too hard and still give away points.
Do it just right and you don't lose ground on your "opponent" (you each
get 2 points).

-Dale


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