Looney Labs Icehouse Mailing list Archive

Re: [Icehouse] Ice Farm

  • FromMarissa Wills <crystallineangel@xxxxxxxxx>
  • DateWed, 1 Apr 2009 13:27:54 -0500
It's kind of like a killer Sudoku with pyramids. A pyramid in a neighboring outlined area pointing to that area = +1 "mystical ice energy". A standing pyramid in an area = -1 "mystical ice energy". Get them so the totals all equal the numbers in the corners of the area and each row/column has one pyramid of every orientation (left right up down and standing).

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:49 PM, <icehouse-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

  1. homeworlds, variant start rule, pie (Joshua Kronengold)
  2. Homeworlds Terminology (Christopher Hickman)
  3. Re: Homeworlds Terminology (Dale Sheldon)
  4. Re: Homeworlds Terminology (Joshua Kronengold)
  5. Re: Homeworlds Terminology (Don Sheldon)
  6. Re: Homeworlds Terminology (Joseph Peterson)
  7. Ice Farm Puzzle (Alexandre Owen Muniz)
  8. Re: Homeworlds Terminology (Christopher Hickman)
  9. Re: Ice Farm Puzzle (David Artman)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 10:01:35 -0500
From: Joshua Kronengold <mneme@xxxxxx>
Subject: [Icehouse] homeworlds, variant start rule, pie
To: icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <18899.33231.784940.594429@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Rob Bryan writes:
>On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Joseph Peterson <jeepeterson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>Hmm, I really must play some second-builder-plays-first games; just
>since my last email in this thread I've been re-convincing myself that
>it's maybe broken.  Or at least that I see a tactic for second builder
>I want to play until I see why it isn't crushing.

I think it -is- broken; I've still not seen a depiction of 2p1st that
isn't flat-out worse than straight turn-taking -- and I suspect that a
smart small universe play in 2p1st is broken (which is one thing you
can do there that you can't do in regular play -- force a small
universe as first player).  I'll admit that 2p1st may be interested
with a rule that you can't force a small universe -- that way, the
first player is actually staking out territory her opponent can't
steal (e.g. has a real advantage, not an apparent advantage that's
actually a disadvantage) --but I think you need to add that rule to
keep it even arginally playable.

Re pie -- I'm ok with not building my homeworld in half the games (at
least, in a variant), and afaict, there are no broken setups, only
auto-lose ones.  Setups where both homeworlds are moving inexorably
toward doom are auto-win for the choosing player; they choose
whichever homeworld is going to toward doom slower, and even if
they're tied, the opponent must go first.  So like fools mates in
2p1st, you don't do that.

Hmm.  Probably a better pie rule than my initial one is that one of
the starts has a first player marker attached to it, and the second
player must choose one.  This puts even more weight on the dividing
player, but makes the divsive role much clearer -- in my first try,
the two starts should be asymetric (slightly), and either: 1. they're
too far off and the second player should choose the better one.
2. they're too close and the second player should pass the choice back
to the first player, as the person who goes first has an advantage, or
3. they're just right, and the second player is effectively choosing
whether to go first or second by passing or taking.  But if you drop a
first player marker on one, the second player has the same variation
of choice, but the asymmetry is much more obvious, and the divider
doesn't have tho make a tricky choice, and then make a choice again if
things get passed back (one they should already know, as they did the
division, but still).

--
      Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^--   "Did you know, if you increment enough, you   /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'
 /\\    get an extra digit?"  "I knew," weeps Six.    |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\
/-\\\   "We knew. But we had forgotten."             '---''(_/--' (_/-'


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:43:12 -0400
From: Christopher Hickman <tophu@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [Icehouse] Homeworlds Terminology
To: icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <65053466704355341928584552962409211982-Webmail@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I've been following the recent Homeworlds discussion with interest, but some of the terminology used has been beyond my understanding.

I'm guessing that when someone referred to a "Gemini homeworld" that means that both pieces in the homeworld are the same, right?

Can someone explain what is meant by "small universe" and "large universe" as well?

What is fools mate?

Thanks,
Topher


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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:02:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dale Sheldon <dales@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] Homeworlds Terminology
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
       <alpine.BSF.2.00.0904011254380.13707@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Christopher Hickman wrote:

> I'm guessing that when someone referred to a "Gemini homeworld" that
> means that both pieces in the homeworld are the same, right?

I'm not sure about that one either; only played homeworlds once or twice,
and several years ago.  But I think I can answer the rest:

> Can someone explain what is meant by "small universe" and "large
> universe" as well?

When the two homeworlds contain the same sized pieces, they are both
adjacent to the same systems (e.g., if both are a 1 and a 3, both are
adjacent to 2s) and are only two hops apart (homeworld->2->other
homeworld); that's small universe.

When they contain different sized peices, they are each adjacent to
different systems (e.g., if one is 1+3, it's adjacent to 2s; if the other
is 2+3, it's adjacent to 1s) and they are three hops apart
(homeworld->2->1->other homeworld); that's large universe.

> What is fools mate?

A reference to the four-move checkmate of Chess, or any similar
ending-the-game-before-it-really-gets-going win (which any non-foolish
opponent *should* see coming).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fool's_mate

--
Dale Sheldon
dales@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:25:55 -0500
From: Joshua Kronengold <mneme@xxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] Homeworlds Terminology
To: icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <18899.41891.567373.94254@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Christopher Hickman writes:
>What is fools mate?

Dale explained the general term here, but in the context of the
discussion, a start was pointed out in the "2nd player goes first"
variant that would result in the opponent effectively losing
immediately (if opp starts with y1b2 g3 ship and opponent starts with
a g3y3 r3 ship and builds a small, the opponent is caught between
swapping their ship to R3 (and losing in a turn or two, as they must
then either swap again (and lose) or move away from their homeworld
(and lose)) or building, and losing pretty much immediately as the
opponeng moves the r3 into their homeworld and takes over.  Thus,
fool's mate.

Despite this, I'd forgotten about gemini starts, which, of course,
break "2nd player goes first" even more throughly than small universe
starts.  Being a turn behind your opponent when they have direct
access to your homeworld from theirs is bad, bad juju.



--
      Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^--   "Did you know, if you increment enough, you   /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'
 /\\    get an extra digit?"  "I knew," weeps Six.    |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\
/-\\\   "We knew. But we had forgotten."             '---''(_/--' (_/-'


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:26:30 -0400
From: Don Sheldon <don.sheldon@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] Homeworlds Terminology
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
       <ddbc0f4d0904011026r8cf888bl3f47cd43a4f17dcc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 4/1/09, Christopher Hickman <tophu@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> I've been following the recent Homeworlds discussion with interest, but some of the terminology used has been beyond my understanding.
>
> I'm guessing that when someone referred to a "Gemini homeworld" that means that both pieces in the homeworld are the same, right?

Same size.  Having them the same color would be an even less good
idea.  (Not that gemini isn't sometimes useful.)

> Can someone explain what is meant by "small universe" and "large universe" as well?

When it takes less than three moves to get from one homeworld to the
other.  If either player has home stars that are the same size as each
other or the second player matches the sizes of the first player's
home stars then the game will be in a small universe.

> What is fools mate?

When an early decision guarantees a quick path to victory for the
opposition.  A few simple misteps, especially in the "the second
players makes the first normal move" variant, can end the game in just
a few moves.

--
- |) () /\/


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joseph Peterson <jeepeterson@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] Homeworlds Terminology
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <553870.4233.qm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Some of these were already answered, but I am waiting 15 minutes for a build to finish... ;)

> I'm guessing that when someone referred to a
> "Gemini homeworld" that means that both pieces in
> the homeworld are the same, right?

Gemini are the twins... in this case, two of the same size.  At least, that's what I assumed.  I haven't really discussed homeworlds a lot, so I'm making a lot of guesses at the terminology and I'm co-opting terms from other games.

> Can someone explain what is meant by "small
> universe" and "large universe" as well?

Essentially, there are three distances in Homeworlds.  You can be one hop away.  Eg. a medium star is one hop from a small star, a large star, or a binary system with a large and a small.  Two binary systems are one hop away if they don't share a size in common.  This is rare, it means that at least one player picked two stars of the same size.

You can be two hops away.  Eg. A small star is two hops away from another small star or a binary system that contains a small.  Two binary systems are two hops away from each other if they contain exactly the same sized stars.

You can be three hops away.  Two binary systems are three hops away if they contain all three sizes between them.  For example, A large/small (goldilocks) system is three hops from a small/medium(banker) system.  A single star system can always reach any other system in two hops.

I think of the universe as being "small" if the homeworlds are two hops away.  I think of it as "tiny" if they are one hop away from each other.

> What is fools mate?

A reference to a quick win that should be easily defeated by a competent player.  It basically requires your opponent to help you out.  Hmm... what's the Fried Liver Attack of Homeworlds?

-JEEP





------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:40:25 -0700
From: Alexandre Owen Muniz <munizao@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Icehouse] Ice Farm Puzzle
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49D3A709.4080403@xxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Okay, it's not a game per se, but a puzzle, but I used Icehouse pieces
and a chessboard to create it, and you can do likewise to solve it if
you want:

http://xprt.net/~munizao/mathrec/gridpuzzle.html#3

Owen


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:42:28 -0400
From: Christopher Hickman <tophu@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] Homeworlds Terminology
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <169336801887971327884777938707159128662-Webmail@xxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wednesday, April 01, 2009, at 01:26PM, "Don Sheldon" <don.sheldon@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>When an early decision guarantees a quick path to victory for the
>opposition.  A few simple misteps, especially in the "the second
>players makes the first normal move" variant, can end the game in just
>a few moves.

So this is like the "Bluebird Mistake" that Andy vlogged about?


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:46:36 -0400
From: David Artman <david.artman@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Icehouse] Ice Farm Puzzle
To: Icehouse Discussion List <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
       <b93db5820904011046l4aba47fu97579b54d3811fed@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Alexandre Owen Muniz <munizao@xxxxxxxx>wrote:

> http://xprt.net/~munizao/mathrec/gridpuzzle.html#3<http://xprt.net/%7Emunizao/mathrec/gridpuzzle.html#3>


Ummm... OK, far be it from me to be opposed to flavor text ("a story"), but
I can't figure out what the point of the puzzle is, for all the fiction and
verbiage.

Can you summarize the pointing rules and goal of the puzzle? Maybe just a
"Summary" or "Rules and Goal" sub-section off the main "III. Ice Farm"
section? I'm curious... but I can't see the forest for all the trees.

Thanks;
David
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