Looney Labs Fluxx Mailing list Archive

[Fluxx] After Andy's "Draw First" ruling

  • From"Carol Townsend" <carol.townsend@xxxxxxxxx>
  • DateTue, 9 Oct 2007 14:53:53 -0500

On 10/9/07, Anthony Kozar <anthonykozar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: [a whole bunch of interesting stuff - I'm only going to comment on a few things and will snip out the rest. I also changed the Subject line to help with threading.  Your inbox thanks me, I know.]


Secondly, "play first" breaks "Trade Hands" in my opinion: save that card as
the only card in your hand, and then play it at the beginning of your turn
before drawing any cards.  It also seems unfair with "Time Vortex".

First, please remember that what I write are my own thoughts and interpretations and are not meant to be taken in any other way than one person's whistling in the wind.  Grains of salt will be provided upon request.

"Unfair" and "Broken" are two different things.  They may feel the same, I and hear what you're saying, but Fair is not what

Fair is treating all things equally.  As a former teacher, the ONE thing I heard most often was "that's not FAIR!" when I told Student X they couldn't do what they wanted.  Well, if Student X is being treated exactly the same way that Students Y, Z, Q, L and P are all treated, then it's Fair.  Whether it is Right or Good or anything else is a totally different matter.  Too many times "That's Not FAIR!" comes out when it's just not the way we want it to be.  As long as the ruling that Andy made is the same for all circumstances, then it's fair.  Remember, Andy's ruling was that you MAY play first.  Specifically, Andy said "drawing first is not required."  With that wording, it is totally FAIR.  

Broken means the cards don't work any more.  Here's an example of why I don't think Andy's ruling Breaks the game:

What if I had no cards in my hand at the beginning of the turn?  Say the current Rules are "Draw 1, Play (anything more than 1)"  Is it fair to play this card if it's either Trade Hands or Time Vortex?  Sure.  Will my opponents cringe?  Sure. I may even have gleefully evil chuckles.  Does that mean that either card is broken because of the circumstances of me having no cards in my hand at the beginning of my turn?  Nope.  

Now, take that same scenario, but with one change.  I have 1 card in my hand (either Trade Hands or Time Vortex... either one will do for this example).  I choose not to draw.  My opponents will cringe and I will likely chuckle gleefully as I play the card, but it really is no different than the above scenario.  Remember: the cards have no memory - they won't know if I've drawn or not.  The only thing is that we've all gotten used to the "draw first" standard.  I don't think it's caused any cards to become Broken... whether or not it's Fair is a different thing.  

I also think that "No-Hand Bonus" becomes problematic with "play first".  Do
you have to draw the 3 cards before playing any if your hand is empty?  In
my opinion, "No-Hand Bonus"'s text definitely implies that "observing the
current draw rule" is the first thing you do "at the start of your turn".

There's no problem with the "No Hand Bonus" when mixed with the "Play First" option. If you have cards in your hand, the No Hand Bonus doesn't affect you.  Nor does it say that you must Draw your cards at the beginning of your turn. It simply says you must "draw a new hand of 3 cards before observing the current Draw rule."   If you don't have any cards in your hand... well, then you can't continue your turn until you Draw cards.  You can't play what you don't have.  

Now the true Rules Lawyers in this group will say something to the effect of "it doesn't say you must observe the current Draw rule immediately after drawing your hand of 3 cards" but to me, that's going way beyond the pale.  Argue it if you want... for me, I follow the wording on one card before I go onto the next card: remember... the cards have no memory.  Finish one, then move on.



 I don't have a copy of "Zombie Quartet" to look at

Zombie Quartet: when it's killed, it doesn't go in the discard pile - it goes to the top of the Draw pile - and there's lots of ways to kill Zombies.... heh heh....

but I imagine that if another player can strategically get it onto the
top of the deck so that you will draw it, you should not be able to simply
"ignore" your draw and win.

I understand what you're saying - but that's part of where Fluxx can be played a bit strategically.  Which, in my opinion (more grains of salt being passed as needed) it part of what is making Zombie Fluxx a better game.  Less chaos (dependent pretty much on what you draw) and more strategy (hey, my brain IS worth something in this game!!  And as more than just Zombie food!!) is, for me, a good thing.


Further, I think "play first" allows players to skirt around the intentional
chaos of cards like "Final Card Random" and "First Card Random".  

Is "Final Card Random" Broken or Unfair when it's Draw 3, Play 3, Hand Limit 0?  I draw 3 cards... I play two of them.... here, you choose which I should play for my final card, will you please?  I can think of lots of ways to skirt intentional chaos - that's part of my strategic playing of Fluxx.

One last troubling issue with "play first" is this: when you do choose to
draw, do you have to draw all of the cards that your are required to by the
current draw rule or can you draw only as many as you like, then play more
cards (if allowed) before finishing drawing?  It just seems simpler to
stipulate "must draw first".

Granted, this seems picky, but I understand what you're saying.  I think this part is quite obvious - but then again, you thought the "you should draw first" was obvious.  And I do know plenty of Rules Lawyers who would go to town on this part of the rule.

However, that being said... I'm not sure how much it would really matter.  I would have to play around with this one and see if it makes much of a difference.

Final thoughts from my point of view: while you're shuffling the deck, make sure that everyone is in agreement with whatever ground rules and house rules you play with.  That should be enough for everyone.

Anyone else need the salt shaker?


I know that I can "play however I want" and that I cannot "force anyone else
to play the way that I think is correct", but I wanted to point out that I
think there are a number of issues that allowing "play first" makes MORE
confusing or less fun (IMHO).  I _do_ play Fluxx first and foremost to have
fun, just like the rest of you.

Anthony Kozar
anthonykozar AT sbcglobal DOT net

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