Cheryl O (& Chris H, I suppose) - I did not intend to paint the black and white picture you presented. I am no more anti-family than I am pro-alcoholism or pro-lung-cancer, nor is anyone that society calls "sane." I do not classify any group of individuals universally, if I can avoid it--what ever made you think I believe all kids are brats, in particular considering this quote: "I adore the nice ones, and I give the evil eye to parents of the snotty ones and strive to ignore them." That very quote of mine undermines your entire (hyperbolic) counter. I never said that even the bad ones "stop adult fun"--we ignore them as much as possible and then have the owner throw them out--but if you'd like to speak to what I *said* then perhaps you could explain what's wrong about having a place where gamers can be gamers, in all our smoking, drinking, argumentative greatness? Why would such a place be in any way a "problem" for you such that you have to speak against it? Go open a normal FLGS, then; I won't stop you (or even criticize you! Try it some time!). My idea was for a conjunction of businesses which would try to provide as many gamers as possible with whatever welcoming and comfortable space they desire; and cater to their needs over the hours, so they don't spend money elsewhere; and be able to afford to remain open into the wee hours. * I get off work after 6pm and stay up until midnight or 1am every day; my FLGS close by 9pm. That's my 3 hour window, five days a week, excluding dinner--I eat late anyway, so that's not a big issue... for me. But even 3 hours is not enough, so I don't even try to go anymore. But when I did.... * My FLGS won't allow smoking or drinking, so every smoke break slows play (sometimes for the whole group); and meanwhile, my relaxing after work beverage(s) await me 3 hours in the future, when I leave the store. I could stop smoking, and I someday will; but why should I *have* to go *only* to venues which are non-smoking: traditional FLGSs? *I* make a point of buying something *every single time* I am in the FLGS, so *maybe* a bit of accommodation for a patron is in order, hmmm? A bar can provide such accommodation legally; a retail establishment can not. In my area. (On that note, folks, let's drop the "but my state's laws are different" threads, OK? YMMV covers a LOT of ground, in such spiraling debates. So... YMMV. Done, OK?) * Many of the nights I consider playing at my FLGS, it is crowded by kids; often, their behavior and attitudes (judgementalism, cruelty to playmates, rudeness) go FAR beyond the "harm" caused by hearing some some pick-up lines or some curse words that they hear (and I bet SAY) every single day. Now, FWIW, I'm very happy for you and glad that yours don't, and I'm glad that you supervise them; the former is actually pretty common when joined with the latter... the latter, though IS NOT. FLGSs are very often "free day care." But don't take my word for it: E-mail some Retailer Rabbits and take a poll. * "Kids banned"? If I may be so "rude": WTF are you talking about? It ain't ME keeping underage kids out of a bar without their parents; it's the law. I never even used the word "ban" that I can recall, even when talking about aggressive, rude people who get kicked out to make the place gamer-friendly. And there's my whole (ugly, child-eating) point: GAMER-friendly. And not all gamers are you; and rather few of them are parents (Looney Labs games are somewhat unique in this regard, FYI). And not all potential future customers are like you nor are parents nor will wander into a FLGS out of curiosity. But I have personal evidence (and have read more here) of it being VERY easy to entertain folks at the pub and, thereby, slowly add to the overall gaming populace of the area. Which, if I recall correctly, was the point of the whole thread: growning a gaming scene so that an FLGS gets enough revenue to stay open. And speaking of straw men: when's the last time you went into ANY bar, never mind one which provide free miniatures terrain to use and demo games and customized and configurable tables and...? If you're a non-customer berating me for an idea of a place you'd never go anywhere near... uh, thanks for the data point, I guess. The FLGS or coffee shop is waiting for you (BTW, according to a Johns Hopkins study, caffeine causes cancer... just so's you know). --- Carlton - Thanks for additional grounding in the gray world of real life. Your point about sport events (or the average school yard or park) and sex/profanity hit even harder than mine about the commonality of children being viciously cruel to each other. --- Lisa H - Absolutely right: local laws must generally be followed to stay in business. Those of you who own FLGS must conform to local, state, and federal regulations in everything you do (and say). That said... so what? I've never heard of a bar closing down because of crippling license fees or bathroom maintenance costs. ;) However... Indy is a weird and wild exception. Remind me: can you order drinks in a restaurant? I know you can't get cold beer in a convenience store, nor cold soda at a liquor store; but the two tend to setup within a block of each other. Freaks. :P :) --- Everyone else: It was an idea to toss out there for thought; it wasn't A Modest Proposal, for God's sake. If you take your kids to Applebee's, you'd probably take them to this venue I have in mind. I'm not talking about a Biker Bar sharing space with a Kindergarten. About all my concept has different from ANY restaurant establishment that has an adjoined bar with it own hours is that it *also* has an adjoined retail establishment with its own hours. Just. Like. A. Golf. Club. House. Anyone afraid to take their kids to a golf clubhouse? (Rhetorical question! Rhetorical question! PLEASE, no horrific hyperboles about Scotch-drunk 80-year-olds molesting your kids!) *zips hood on flame suit back up; inserts respirator; genuflects, saying, "Please, massah, don't whip me; don't whip this tired old body, no!"* David