Looney Labs Icehouse Mailing list Archive

[Icehouse] Re: Ikkozendo is now on the Wiki... and needs a final name (re-send)

  • FromDavid Artman <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • DateMon, 15 Jan 2007 08:48:53 -0700
Kory Heath write:
> You've already realized the fact that 
> the Master is not always able to provide both a black and a white 
> counter-example. (For instance, if the guess is "White if the koan 
> contains a medium piece", and the actual rule is "White if the koan 
> contains more mediums than smalls", you will not be able to create a 
> white counter-example.) As written, your current rules give the Master 
> the option of always just changing one side or the other. The question 
> is, do your rules need to insist that the Master set up both a black 
> and a white counter-example unless it's impossible to do so?

I think I am confused a bit by this paragraph. I will try to answer 
what I can, and perhaps you could re-ask what I do not address?

First, yes, I have run into a situation where I could not disprove a 
guess without adjusting both koans. I can't recall the specific rule 
but I do recall being caught out by the number of available pieces 
and having to change both koans. I have since changed the wiki rules 
to allow the Master to adjust one or both of the koans, so long as both 
retin their relationship to the secret rule (i.e. having or not having 
the Buddha-nature).

Second, I sort of assumed the Master must setup a true and a false 
koan--that's the fundamental starting condition in Zendo, right? This 
is part of where I am unclear about this paragraph: how would you 
ever play with a rule for which you can't show a false koan?

> least in a turn-based game, it will seem very unfair if the Master 
> sometimes chooses to change both sides and sometimes doesn't. Changing 
> both sides obviously gives more information to the player who gets the 
> next turn.

Yes I suppose this provides a slight advantage to the following 
player, in that they get to see additional information, compared to 
when only one koan is adjusted. But, as you've noticed, that can be 
the only way to disprove, for some rules, in some situations. And as 
this is an issue with normal Zendo, I'm not sure I can do anything 
about it anyway (well, other than to say Ikkozendo is "broken").

But, as I say above, I feel like I have something confused--like I have 
misread your point or something. I guess what I'm saying is that I 
haven't seen any big issues (since I changed the rules to allow one or 
both to be adjusted) with either impossibility or fairness, after many 
nights and many rounds of play. Of course, as we tend to play the 
turnless variant (shout out), fairness is secondary to keeping the 
game moving (i.e. not stalling on one drunk--err, player--for too long).

Perhaps amongst a group of veteran, hardcore Zendoers, we'd quickly 
run into the issues you describe?

ANyway, could you try to re-explain your concerns, if they still exist 
knowing that one can "legally" adjust one or both koans, now?

Thanks so much for you help--I apologize if I am too dense to keep up;
David Artman