I honestly had not thought about the execution
of the hand limit being optional until this whole line of discussion started.
I must say I have always played such that the hand limit was enforced at the end
of the play. However, I like the idea of being able to elect when I want
to execute the hand limitation. I think this is something that should be
covered by house rules instead of by a change in the wording of the
cards. If the house rule is stated up front then no one can complain
about being cheated by the alternate execution of the hand limit.
Tim’s discussion did bring to mind
an interesting game we had once before we realized the wording on the bottom of
the “first play random” card. Three of us were playing and
the rules in effect were Draw 3, Play 1, First Play Random, Hand Limit 0.
Not realizing the first play random didn’t apply in this scenario we
would each draw our three cards and allow the random selection of the
play. It was quite a riot. We didn’t get a rules change for
probably 4 rounds and by the time we did we were all laughing hysterically.
My point, I guess, is that as long as all players are applying the rules
equally then no one will feel cheated. Besides, if you’re playing
the game that intently, I think your missing the point of playing the
game. I don’t think it’s really about winning, but more about
the journey to get there.
Thanks for allowing me to rant,
“All the world is a stage . . ”
fluxx-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:fluxx-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan Stout
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:14
To: Fluxx Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Fluxx] Hand Limits
Welcome back -- I'm glad you got
your problems fixed.
Thanks for your comments. I
agree with the principles you've stated: I think it's fun to figure out new
things to do with cards, even if they go beyond the intention of the
In the case of the Hand Limits,
though, there are other principles that outweigh that, at least for
myself. First, even though the flexible Hand Limit timing does not break
the game, it "feels" wrong to many players. Such a feeling is
not an absolute veto, but it is something to take seriously. A clearer
wording in future editions can help eliminate that, however Andy decides.
Second, and more important, I
strongly prefer the strict order of turn steps: Draw, Play, Hand Limit, Keeper
Limit. There is a careful balance in game rules about the amount of
constraints to place on the player: too many, and a player feels frustrated
with the limited choices available; too few, and it feels too free and
pointless. (Robert Frost said that writing verse without rhyme or meter
felt like playing tennis without a net.) Fluxx already has a lot of
options in its play; a strict turn order gives a good amount of
constraints, forcing certain types of planning and tactics.
This is my own taste, of course;
your mileage may vary. (It isn't required to vary, you just have the
----- Original Message -----
August 11, 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Fluxx]
Hand Limits Optional
Wow. I didn't intend to open up such a pandora's box with that comment on
hand limits. Sorry about that. :-) And sorry to just be catching up
to the discussion I inadvertently started. Robin helped me figure out my
issues with the list (thanks Robin!), so I can chime in now.
My intent with that comment last week was just to illustrate that sometimes a card
may have a function beyond what we initially see, and that's not necessarily a
bad thing. As long as it doesn't break the game, I'd say it's a good
thing. I come from a long background of CCG's, both casual playing and
playtesting/design. Part of the fun of those types of games is
discovering new things to do with your cards and figuring out new decks and
combos with old and new cards. Often, we'd come up with stuff that the
designer never intended or thought of. Unless the combo was broken or
abusive to the game, those things usually stayed in.
Personally I feel the same way here. Just becuase it was never the
original intent of the card, or just because most people never realized
they could do something with the card, doesn't necessarily mean the card now
needs to be changed. There are other cards out there that people
(verteran fluxx players and newbies alike) assume work a certain way and miss
some valid options. A few off the top of my head that I've experienced in
Cross Bonus - if I'm wearing a cross or have the
cross keeper, I may play 1 extra card.
rich bonus - if I have more keepers than anyone
else, I may choose to play 1 extra card.
grandparent bonus - I may ignore hand limits
parent bonus - I may draw one extra card
trash a keeper - discard a keeper from in front of
any player (including myself)
(And no, not all bonuses have the 'may'. The
no-hand bonus does not, which I interpret means you must draw those three cards
before your new hand.)
People often play those cards above as if you must do those actions, as if
those cards add to the mandatory draw or play rules. Or they play
something like trash a keeper and not realize that they can trash one of their
own keepers. But the options exist based on the wording, and I can think
of some game instances where you might not want to take advantage of those
bonuses or do some of those actions. But just because some people don't
realize that those options exist and it's become the common interpretation of
those cards doesn't mean the options should no longer be available.
As for Andy's question on what should be done on the wording of hand
limits.... I personally don't see a need for change. It's not an
abusive strategy (it really doesn't come up all that often, honestly).
I'm not against changing the text for clarity. Just because a card is
established doesn't mean it can't be made better. You updated the basic
rules from previous versions. But at the same time, even though I dislike
changing the function of an established card that's a staple in every version,
I don't think changing hand limits to take out the option would hurt the game
much (as I said, it doesn't come up that much). In fact, I doubt very few
people would notice.
If I had to vote, I'd say I like option 2 the best, then 1, and 3 the
least. But whichever you choose, it wouldn't bother me too terribly much.
Have a good one!