Jody Chandler <windblownhermit@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: But it's different in a very important >way. The shirt rule ultimately relies solely on a property that is >considered part of koans, the colors, and so could be reasoned out by >students because it is within the sphere of things they are told to >consider when reasoning out what the rule may be. The problem is that this is predicated on the idea that mapping rules aren't guessable, aren't part of the game, or aren't valid. But really, they are. "Bn iff given a mapping of color to number, the sum of the koan is odd' is perfectly guessable; so is one where the sum of the koan is prime (though much harder)". >The Scrabble rule relies on a property that is not considered part of >koans, the names and spelling in English of the colors. It doesn't. It only relies on color. (And that color and color order, and no other property, is relevant is discoverable via traditional zendo techniques). After that, the problem reduces to "determine how to duplicate the rule governing color order"--which can be done via inductive leap to a letter mapping (not actually that unlikely, though there's the huge elephant that the student's list will not likely be a 1-1 with the master's list). Here's the thing--the rule is the same if you allow all colors or if you're only playing with the standard 4. But with the 4, there's only one word in your list, so it's guessable by humans who don't catch the letter number thing in finite time. So...when does the word list cross a legality (as opposed to sanity) threshold? When you up it to 4 valid words? 8? 16? >But it can be >made into an isomorphic rule that doesn't refer to these, you say? Ask >yourself if such an isomorphic rule could really be guessed without >thinking about Scrabble and the names of the colors and how they are >spelled? The answer is pretty obviously no. So the rule is invalid >not because it is "too hard" but because it relies for its guessability >on a property outside the scope of the game's koans. When students >learn the game of Zendo, they learn what koans are and what properties >of koans are to be considered valid; and the names of the colors (a >piece could equally validly be called "Blue" or "Azul", but these don't >change the color of the piece) is not a part of a koan. It is to be >expected by students then, that rules rely only on these properties, as >specifically stated in the restrictions. Any >student thinking along the lines of Scrabble and the spelling of the >names of the colors is doing so only outside the scope of the >restrictions (and probably realizing this, will decide not to guess >along those lines) they are expected to know. Students not >considering these things are only doing what the game rules tell them >and they would never ever guess the rule. > >Specifically, koans contain color, pip count, size, and orientation, >groundedness, direction, pointing, touching, towers/stacks, and height, >and number of pieces along a 2 dimensional plane represented by the >table. Koans do not contain the names or spellings of the colors (a >piece can be called Blue, it can also be called Azul), so my point is >that because the restrictions of Zendo tell students not to consider >things outside the koans, it is unfair and invalid to have a rule they >can't guess without considering those myriad things outside the scope >of the koan. > >*Finally, the "prime" example (of something too difficult for the >average beginning player but not invalid) is usually incomparable to >the scrabble rule because prime is just a type of number and so could >refer to valid properties of koans (pip count, number of pieces, for >example). However, if it similarly referred to the number of letters >in the spelling of the colors, it would be invalid. > >Thanks all for the interesting discussion > >--- On Thu, 8/4/11, Shadowfirebird <shadowfirebird@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >From: Shadowfirebird <shadowfirebird@xxxxxxxxx> >Subject: Re: [Icehouse] [Zendo] Another Spock Rule question >To: "Icehouse Discussion List" <icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011, 6:23 PM > > > >On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Marc Hartstein ><marc.hartstein@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >Excerpts from shadowfirebird@gmail's message of Thu Aug 04 15:59:26 >-0400 2011: > >> > Bn iff the koan contains a color that was present on the shirt I >was > >> > wearing when the game started. > >> > >> BTW your second example fails the spock rule... > > > >No, it doesn't. It's isomorphic to "...contains at least one blue or > >green piece." [or whatever colors were the ones which made up that >rule] > >Just be clear -- I'm talking about this rule: "Bn iff the koan contains >a color that was present on the shirt I was wearing when the game >started." > > >Spock recreates the game on the Enterprise, and can no longer see your >shirt. Neither did he take note of the colour, since it wasn't part of >the pieces or their orientation to the game surface. Ergo, I think >this fails the Spock rule. > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Icehouse mailing list > >Icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >http://lists.looneylabs.com/mailman/listinfo/icehouse > > > > > >-- >"May God us keep From Single vision & Newtons sleep." -- William Blake > > > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >_______________________________________________ >Icehouse mailing list >Icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >http://lists.looneylabs.com/mailman/listinfo/icehouse >_______________________________________________ >Icehouse mailing list >Icehouse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >http://lists.looneylabs.com/mailman/listinfo/icehouse