I'm a bit surprised myself that you don't see any drinking gamers where you are. Maybe it's an area hting, but I have always associated over 21 gamers with drinking. The point of a strategy game, or any game for that matter, is not about a "mental challenge" so much as it is socializing and having a great time. Both of those things are something I tie greatly to drinking. No, alcohol need not be present to have a good time, but I hardly see it as something to inhibit said festivities. Especially in the case of role playing games do I see alcohol as a great boon. People let loose those roleplaying inhibitions when they have a pint or two and are much more relaxed and worry a lot less about looking or sounding silly when they speak and act in character. You sound to me, and no offense meant at all, like someone who either does not drink or does not do well with the drink. It seems to me that some of the most vocal people against alcohol are, ironically, people who have no idea what it feels like to be a few pints down and really are just going on what they have been told about it and the irresponsible drinkers they have seen. As for the restaurant bit, yes it can be very difficult to make money with a restaurant. The best way to do well is high volume sales. Now if we are talking about a gaggle of roleplayers at each table, ordering a round of chili fries and mini burgers every fifteen minutes (Yes, I am exaggerating) then there you have your high volume sales. I myself have been scouting for a good place to open up an eatery/game store for some time as the two businesses give each other great support. I have to say, however, I see no reason to separate the bar and restaurant areas. Just put a few tourney tables in your "pro shop" area for the weekly pokemon tournaments and such. No need to have the little rascals running around the restaurant all the time. Have their events in the storefront and leave the bar area for the adults who would spend several hours late into the night there hinting for treasure and arming themselves to defeat the Arch Lich and what not. In my experience these are the kinds of gamers that are going to be run off by children anyhow. Yes, there are a lot of well behaved children, but if you are going to get a bit from both camps I would just rather take none from either. Adults with their own income are going to, in general, spend more than kids leeching their parents money. I really do love kids who play games and are well behaved, but you can't please everyone. I think it's a good in between. Have the bar for adults and events throughout the week in the storefront for kids. --- Marnen Laibow-Koser <marnen@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Aug 6, 2007, at 3:23 PM, David Artman wrote: > [...] > > But they games needn't be dropped as potential > revenue channel. > > I agree that a game store may need to find multiple > revenue streams, > and think creatively to do so. However... > > > I had > > the idea years ago for a "Gamer Bar" that worked > very similarly to a > > golf clubhouse: > > 1) Pro Shop: Your basic store, but without the > extra value-adds: just > > shelves, product, and register. Everything in > stock is on shelves > > (i.e. > > it's also your warehousing space). Its hours would > be typical for a > > normal store in the area. > > Sure. > > > 2) Bar: The playing space moves out to a > full-service alcohol bar and > > coffee shop. > > The coffee shop I like, but why the bar? Strategy > and roleplaying > games (which is what we're talking about here) are > all about mental > challenges. To play them effectively, you generally > need to have > your brain *not* clouded by alcohol. This would be > extremely > counterproductive, I think. > > [...] > > 3) Restaurant: Not only does this bring in > additional (even non- > > gamer!) > > revenue, > > People who are more knowledgeable than I am about > the restaurant > business tell me that it's extremely hard to make > money with a > restaurant. Why have one hard-to-run business > subsidizing another? > > > but it's actually required in my area to serve > alcohol without > > being a private club. > > That's unusual (I'm guessing you live in Utah?). > Liquor laws are not > like this everywhere, AFAIK. > > [...] > > It > > also provides an area for younger customers who > couldn't go into > > the bar > > without their parents (but more on that below). > > Why couldn't the game store be that area? And do > you really want the > restaurant overrun with unsupervised kids? > > > > > The key to the concept is being TOTALLY and OPENLY > supportive of > > gaming > > in your area. Some schmucks come in and start > mocking "those geeks > > playing in the corner": throw them out! > > No! As long as they're not causing a disturbance, > let them say their > piece. Throwing them out would not be "supportive > of gaming"; it > would just be unsupportive of customers. > > > Seriously (the gamers who see > > you do this will be forever loyal!). > > I wonder. If I were in your store, and saw you > throw out a group of > customers who were making disparaging comments about > gamers and doing > nothing worse, I don't think I'd come back. After > all, if I see that > happen, I wonder how carefully *I* have to tread. > And that's just > not worth it. > > > The whole point is to provide a > > place where gamers are welcome and encouraged; > it's the non-gamers who > > have to "prove themselves worthy" to remain (i.e. > by being > > respectful of > > the hobby and generally not being too > distracting--drunken yee-hawing > > gets the boot). > > Ridiculous. You are proposing something that would > end up as a > closed society. I don't see why we need to shut > non-gamers out -- at > least, not until they prove themselves *unworthy*. > > [...] > > Finally, it offers a place for adult gamers to be > comfortable, away > > from > > kids if they so desire (*dons protective suit*). > > How do you figure this? People will bring kids. > They may not bring > them into the bar, but most gamers I hang out with > probably wouldn't > go into the bar either. > > > It's a sad fact that > > 90% of the gamers in my area WON'T play at the > FLGS because of the > > kids; > > they meet at each other's homes instead. > > Yes, a lot of kids who hang out at FLGSs are very > annoying (the 13- > year-old Magic geek stereotype?). Some, however, > are exactly the > sort of people who'd make good bunnies to raise into > the next > generation of rabbits. Why shut them out? > > > Another BIG reason we don't > > frequent the FLGS is that we like a bit of draft > with our games, > > and the > > FLGS has none and couldn't have it because it > would discourage parents > > from letting their kids stick around. > > Wow. Beer with your games is so much of an issue > that it keeps you > from the FLGS? I am extremely surprised. For me at > least, the point > of getting together for games is...well...getting > together for > games. I really couldn't care less about what > drinks are available. > > > But the two-part division of play > > space above solves that problem nicely: the bar > becomes a bit of a > > retreat (or even somewhere for mom and dad to hang > out while junior is > > playing a tournie in the restaurant!) but the > restaurant is still > > there > > to give youngsters space too. > > And so the restaurant will become a nightmare with > unsupervised > children. No adult will go in there. It will lose > money. The bar > will not support itself either, because most gamers > (at least in my > crowd) don't drink much, and certainly not while > they're playing games. > > I say just have a decent FLGS with decent play > space, and the world > will beat a path to your door. > > > > > Man... I'm talking myself into doing it. Anyone > got about $100k to > > spare? > > ;) > > David > > > > Best, > -- > Marnen Laibow-Koser > marnen@xxxxxxxxxx > _______________________________________________ > Rabbits mailing list > Rabbits@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > http://lists.looneylabs.com/mailman/listinfo/rabbits >